Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

Summary:

It's a transfer of private debate by notrightmusic and odolany about the level of openness preferable in rules of music games. It is indeed the matter of preference but discussion may still be fruitful.

Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

odolany 05 Mar 2018 11:33

As a 'board' style music game designer I'm unhappy mostly with two things in 'workshop' style music game design:
1) "Preparation" chapter that forces players to make their own props
2) Not specifying all rules (for example giving equal alternatives of rules for players to choose)

1) is mostly a practical problem. It is just great if you can pick up a game basically any time you play music, but of course having props is often fun. Still I'm an advocate of using props that you can provide as a print-out and use the same props in defferent ways for different games.
And I realize that it's indeed personal, because, honestly, I'm just bad with pencils and scissors and find working with them boring and frustrating at the same time. ;)
But my point is: the ideal situation is to provide a ready prop and encourage players to make their own versions (if they will).

2) is for me also about a projected player. For the same reason I don't want to imagine that future player of a game likes drawing I don't want to imagine that a player is interested in game design.
Choosing a ruleset is asking 'Which way the game played would be more fun?' (I'm convinced that rules we choose almost always have effect on that). And answering that question is a designer's job, it's not a trivial one and requires lots of testing.

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

Sqwawkish 26 Mar 2018 06:55

What do you think of Dungeon & Dragon type style games and the dragon master mechanic where they must come up with a large portion of the game themselves?

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

odolany 26 Mar 2018 18:15

Hey! Thx for engaging in theory parts. ;)

D&D is an interesting take. imo music games have indeed a lot in common with RPGs. Although to be honest I have no idea what are the tasks of designers there and what is a usual process.

I'll move here also your quote from 'Introduction' thread:

I've always had trouble defining what a music game is. The definition on the front page of this site comes close to what I imagine they should be.
I've had people tell me that a game is defined by having winners and losers, but that is too narrow a few for me and many games suggest otherwise. It's also worth noting that games don't necessarily have to be fun either.

I know designers very attached to winning conditions, I'm not one of them. Jesper Juul adds a nice "outcome that players are emotionally attached to" to his definition, sort of midway.

…But for fun… we could discuss more. I guess some put forth 'engagement', do you think game should be engaging? Or at least aim for being engaging.
There would be a few distinct categories of those that are not fun (also not engaging): "Bad games", "games inspired activities" and "games, metaphorically speaking". Last one is not the least as "game" serves as a default metaphor for so many things, that it's almost impossible to find a basic meaning now. I think reserving literal meaning for rule-based activities with the purpose of being fun/engaging would be elegant, at least. ;)

Anyway, I'm convinced that at this wiki there is a place for people with any possible understanding of a music game or a game ;).

Last edited on 26 Mar 2018 18:20 by odolany Show more

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

Sqwawkish 30 Mar 2018 03:17

The Dungeon Master's job as an organizer in D&D is often to come up with details of the adventure and to direct the whole game. It's quite broad. They are essentially playing a role of a game designer if you can look at it that way. I've always thought it would be amazing to have a music game with a DM involved.

Is there a way to be notified when people respond to our posts?

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

odolany 31 Mar 2018 12:46

I'm pretty sure there are no forum notifications on wikidot.

And as for DM. I understand your call as a vote of preference for a kind of "workshop paradigm" ;), as it's 100% compatible.
This one person who makes things happen during the game, adjusts everything to participants, makes variants on the spot and takes care for the process. That is like it usually goes with "dungeon masters" and "teachers" alike (and some other MC roles). I'm sure notrightmusic has something in his vaults where this role is given interesting tasks for the Preparation stage. ;)

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

notrightmusic 02 Apr 2018 01:30

I'm back! Was traveling for a bit. It often happens.

I'm looking into forum email notifications. It seems that odolany is right. You can subscribe to a thread by RSS at the top of the page. But, I think it's not ideal for most people.

I agree with the DM style music games. I do have some like that I can put up here. While traveling I was working on a character based music game. Gonna get that one up next.

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

notrightmusic 03 Apr 2018 13:19

I just uploaded a game that you could say relates to DnD. You don't actually need a DM, but it would help to have someone who completely understands how to play the game.
It's an amazingly fun music game to play if you can find some create players!
http://musicgames.wikidot.com/game:stay-in-character

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

notrightmusic 06 Mar 2018 09:30

I guess it comes down to your own personal preference. Obviously you prefer "pick up and play" games.
I don't see a need to put these two kinds of games up against each other. All games serve their purposes and I'm glad that they all exist. Choice is good.
I'm not feeling the terms 'board game' and 'workshop' to describe music games. 'Pick up and play' might work for games that are easy to quickly start playing without the need of preparations, set up, and / or practice. Maybe some time to learn the rules. Though, they might include props, such as cue-cards or dice, as they can be readily available and don't require any extra time.
I don't understand where the term 'workshop' came from. I might need more information about that term. I can't think of any game that would be restricted to a workshop setting.

1. Preparation - I don't know any games that require all players to prepare props ahead of time. If some kind of preparation is required then it's usually one or two people who do it, usually those who set up and are in charge of the game meeting. Unless it's a classroom setting and an assignment is given. Usually these preparations are small - such as "come up with a motif," or "think of a few events." Big preparations are almost always done by the people in charge of a game meeting. I often the one who's in charge of game meetings so I might have to build, for example, a wooden spinning wheel for a game. I'm one of those people who would gladly do it! Then I have a spinning wheel in storage for whenever I need it for future games! At most of my game meetings, gatherings, workshops, parties everyone shows up with no extra preparations needed. Except if they're playing they might have to bring their instruments.
"the ideal situation is to provide a ready prop and encourage players to make their own versions (if they will)." I agree with this.

2) Not specifying all rules - For the most part I agree. Game rules contributed to this wiki library should be concrete, unless there is a specific reason to have free choice in the mechanics, I still imagine it would be rare. There is also a Variant chapter that can help solve some problems that might arise in being strict with this rule.
However, there are times when not specifying all the rules and leaving choice is important. Creative education for example - which would include classrooms, workshops, videos, or whenever one hopes to get people to play 'game designer.' When doing this there should be an objective in place. What is the main idea to be taught? And that objective should be the core of the game mechanic. We might even want to have an 'educational games' category here in the future, but for now, the library is for people to find games that they can play. So, for the most part, the game rules should be complete. If a mechanic is left open, most of the time it's just bad game design.

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

odolany 06 Mar 2018 13:18

As for wiki, the road seems OK.
If possible we always might try to make games as ready to pick up asap unless it would break the core fun idea of a game. That's what comments/discussion pages would be good for ;).

But actually you seem to touch on a topic that makes the distinction in question most clear and even emotionally relatable. The game in what I called a 'workshop' format requires this leader/teacher/gamemaster figure. And a game of 'board' format ideally wouldn't need anyone like that.

The preference might be also connected to the fact that you as a professional musician participate in many projects and those by nature need some sort of structure. I'm much more of a hobbyst and wouldn't find much pleasure in people telling me what to do ;p and that is also how I understand games.

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

notrightmusic 06 Mar 2018 14:07

Since I've been discussing all this stuff with you I've been thinking of my narrow position when dealing with game meetings. It's very refreshing!
Of course, there are many ways to go about working with music games. That's one reason I'm interested in hearing about how your game meetings are held. Isn't there an organizer(s)? Would this be the person in charge of things? Who decides the place, the games to be played, the players? Who invites and/or advertises the meetings? Most importantly, rules must be described by someone. Would this person be the leader you say is only present in workshop style games?

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

odolany 06 Mar 2018 17:43

At meetings there are organizers (I organize multi-games meetings, there were here also ones dedicated to "Entitled piece" only) and at meetings there usually are participants that need to get some general explanation. Most often I give it. Calling games is available to anyone who knows any game and wants to play it, but the organizer usually knows the most games, so can suggest something that fits most people's skill and instruments.

There are also other kinds of meetings with games - actual workshops that promise learning. These are much more organized, often payed and advertised through the authority and achievements of the leader. I've been to some (only those free ones ;pp) - usually inspiring.

But a game can be it's own activity regardless of meetings. It's just a matter of how many people know games (some specific games or just are familiar with the activity). When there are not many people at local jam session and they know games, we can sometimes play a round or two (leaderlessly).

I hope music games will some time be just an available activity in any situation when people meet.

Re: Design paradigms: board game vs workshop

notrightmusic 07 Mar 2018 08:16

I love the idea of the "Entitled Piece" btw. In fact, it almost seems exactly like the kind of game you wouldn't be happy with!
What you do, as an organizer sounds similar to some of the meetings I have and what I do. I also do workshops, games in classes and at parties, plus, similar to what you do, in bands. All function differently. I have to comment on something you said above about working as a professional musician. Not all of my gatherings I would call professional. Like at all! Many are very free and unorganized. There will be live music and I suggest a game. I pick an easy one, or quickly make one up, teach it to the players, and play. I'm not one to record most gatherings, but there is this old one I found that shows how unprofessional some gatherings I'm a part of can be. Although there is a lengthy introduction to the rules, that was intentional as we were waiting for the donation bucket to pass around before starting the actual game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UFeR77l7oc
That was part of a gathering I had that featured unique ways to use the human voice. The game was in the middle of various band performances. It wasn't the main thing.

I agree with you here. I hope that pick up and play games can be thought of as a regular activity for anyone interested. That's my focus for this wiki. However, I still love more in-depth games that require a bit more. Give me all the games!