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The simplified one looks much better.
The more I think about it the more it makes sense to do this. And the idea of this kind of categorization has potential to even influence the creation of more games.
Personally, I might have trouble determining which category some of my games would fall under. I tend to think of all music games as being free form.

Gave it more space - for now still with two columns.
For me our long list is already starting to be too long to be useful - I have hopes for that additional stage of focus.
I'm glad that we are both focused on discoverers ;).
But surely, not changing the official for now, let's have more opinions.

I like the idea, but honestly, it looks busy and confusing. I'm especially thinking about newcomers who might be interested in music games but know nothing about them. I don't know if the separate columns are necessary. We could make a new category; similar to how we have PLAYERS, TIME, LEVEL, and LATEST. When clicked on the games will then be divided as Free-form and Well-defined.
After reading your idea about this I agree that it can be useful to some people, myself included. But, I think it can be implemented in a less obtrusive manner. Thoughts?

Thanks. I changed the wording a bit in the preparation.
The person who prepares the deck can also play. Of course, he will know the contents.
Another version of this is to come up with a story arc first. For example, something like a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure#Freytag's_analysishttp:// dramatic arc]. Each player is then assigned another player to create a deck for, following the story arc. I like to keep this version timed. 30 seconds for every card.

Re: Wait now... by notrightmusicnotrightmusic, 13 Jun 2018 09:10

Here is a sketch, how new library could look like:
http://musicgames.wikidot.com/hub:game-new

(sorting doesn't work for now, but it's gonna be there if this passes)

One of the side gains from "free-form" category would be easy and straightforward adding of new titles there (they wouldn't require a form to fill, like well-define games do). They will not be able to be sorted as a list though and we would need a workaround to let them appear in "feeling lucky" section and alike, but it's not a lot.

Good option we will have is to put links between free-form template and a well-defined balanced and tested example based on same mechanics.
I wonder if we should get rid of a longer text (maybe just give a link "Learn more about tags" article of sort).

Re: Wait now...
odolanyodolany 10 Jun 2018 06:17
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » 15 Cards

I got that - but the preparation part is a bit misleading with "After you have all 15 images printed" part as 15 is not all.
I'm wondering also if this set-up can be done without excluding a person from play. It assumes a person outside of the game who prepares deck now.

Re: Wait now... by odolanyodolany, 10 Jun 2018 06:17

The version here is for the deck of 15 cards to be printed out for each player. So, if you have 4 players that would be 4 decks; 60 cards total. The best way to print them out is on index cards of four cards per page. That way you're printing out 15 pages.
Different versions include Card Drop, described HERE. This way you would print out one deck of 15 big cards.
Or, and even simpler, again one deck of 15 big cards, with a conductor going through the cards.
Does that help?

Re: Wait now... by notrightmusicnotrightmusic, 10 Jun 2018 04:22
Wait now...
odolanyodolany 09 Jun 2018 18:55
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » 15 Cards

So, all in all, is it that you need to prepare 15/30/45/60 or 75 cards?
I lost it in the first reading and imagined this game differently.

Wait now... by odolanyodolany, 09 Jun 2018 18:55

Here's a small snippet of us talking about, and playing, the Winking Murderer game.
At first, we were going to simply have one card that was a murderer, and one that was a detective, with the rest being blank. Then we decided on adding musical roles. As mentioned above.
Before the video went on we decided that when a player is killed they should scream. This way everyone can keep track of who's dying. It was much better this way.
We also realized that looking around is required throughout the game.
At the beginning of the video, you can see me passing around a singing bowl containing the players' roles.
You can hear the one guy suggest that the detective use musical cues to call out the murderer. Which we didn't try yet.
It is a silly little game. This music on this one is a bit noisy, but we were concerned about the mechanics of the game at the moment.

No, no. Thank you for all the quetions.
I will need to think how to word it - "provoke comments" and "pass directly" are taken from the original score (CBN), I wasn't to remove ambiguity from Sea-game (rather adding it)

Re: Confused with one part by odolanyodolany, 07 Jun 2018 19:33

You seem to really want to do this.
I see what you're saying, and how it could be helpful.
If it's not too much work we can try it.
But, still, I usually prefer to keep things as simple as possible. Especially for new users.
It's up to you. Let's see it!

I agree about children's games. I remember you linked me to a great database of them.
Yes, I hope to get "Winking Murderer: the Musical" up soon. And that's exactly what I'll call it now!
I'm pretty sure my wife was video recording a lot of us discussing the changes to the game. I'll check, upload it to YT, and link it hear.

Ok. Very nice! This makes more sense.
For "SET UP" you could make it even more simple:

Explain the symbols on the game board. See below.

I love the new take on the game board. It's less wordy than Carl's original.
A few more things I'd like to clear up.
Can we move on the borders of the board as well? It's a bit unclear if we can.
What exactly do you mean by "provoke comments?" Verbal comments? Musical?
Can you give an example of "pass directly?"

Sorry for all the questions. I think this is a wonderfully unique game and I hope to play it this weekend.

I couldn't write a note right away, and forgot recording, so now I don't remember much in detail. ;)
There was a sudden rain right before the meeting, so I expected have some "reading time in the hut", but after all 8 people played for 4 hours and it was again fun. Maybe ore development/discussion oriented then previous meetings.

I got to be an agent in Agents and to my great surprise I enjoyably failed my guesses.
New addons that we tried were not a huge hit: a vocal Two-headed soloist and hat/boot Cue-cards (for sound pitch) but might find some better context yet.

Edit: one thing that worked was to add syllables to acapella Staircase. Have a hard time to find English equivalent though.

Hut in June by odolanyodolany, 06 Jun 2018 21:42

I'm thinking of two columns on the library page: Free-form and Well-defined

That ease of modification could be a way to recognize these. On one hand every guest authored piece (SyndaKit etc) is well-defined - better not to mess around with that ;). And for some more typical games it's not that easy to "change" something and keep the game inself. You usually have to add something on the top of current rules - it's an expansion for a well-defined game then or just a different game (for experience) with some similarities in rules.

On the other hand free-forms are usually easily adjustable for many numbers of players, time and often difficulty so they don't fit well to the sortable list (or maybe something to stay? difficulty? min players? not sure).

To free-forms group would go open and simple stuff probably, whenever the idea matters not the exact rules: Event games template, Djent (I always end up with a smaller mod at meetings), Fairy tale (expanded for sth like "follow a story" template), 15 Cards (expanded), Entitled Piece, Remote, Two-headed soloist maybe.
I would also add "cue-cards template" and "pass the sound template" that we do always but when being such a rule-blob they are not worthy to get to the current lib imo.

Wonder about Impersonating/mimicking games. They could form a "mimicking template" which would embrace them as options. The impersonator of animals etc… We could also put some games as "suggested versions" of a free-form or keep links between two sides of a library like if free-forms were kind of genres.

Thanks for sharing. I really like the photos.
Children games are a bag of inspiration. One of the matters I still plan to write in general. Especially with local diversification that goes with that (a bit like your vid about Awa Odori - foreign inspirations that you might even not hear about otherwise). Will Winking Murderer: the Musical join the library? ;)

I'd think I'd find a detailed description of those consequent adjustments you made to the gameflow especially interesting (educational) but that's maybe just me. ;)

Thx for the feedback. Scratched it - think it's ok now?

Re: Confused with one part by odolanyodolany, 06 Jun 2018 19:30

I have a few ongoing music game gatherings that I direct.
The first one I’ll introduce here is one of the latest.
It’s held at my small music & language school in Tokyo, Japan.

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This particular gathering is titled “Sunday Morning Ambient Improv & Music Games.”
A relaxing and creative gathering to help start one’s Sunday!
It’s limited to seven people with no audience, except for the pedestrians walking about outside.
This particular gathering is also unique in how I get people to come. Usually, my gatherings involve friends, musical colleagues, or students. But, this time I only get people through meetup.com and a few other smaller online places. I believe playing music games with as many different kinds of people as possible helps one grow as an improviser, music game designer, and event organizer.
One problem with meetup.com is that people are supposed to RSVP their spot, which is what I originally liked about it, but some people don’t do that and they show up unannounced. This is bad for gatherings like mine where I wish to keep a limit of participants.

Here’s my meetup page for the gathering: https://www.meetup.com/Free-Music-Improvisation-Music-Improv-Games
It’s a two-hour thing. From 11:00am to 1:00pm. The first Sunday of every month.
I’ve held two meetings from this series so far. Though I’ve been doing similar meetings since the nineties.
It’s quite the casual meeting. I make a schedule, but it’s generally abandoned within 30 minutes.
Here is the schedule for yesterday’s meeting:

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I like to start with a completely free improv session to get people settled in and relaxed. Though there is the theme “relaxed ambiance,” so we do try to at least stick to that. This is a nice way to introduce everyone to each other musically, players can make adjustments to their setups, and because we’re not focused in on a game yet late-comers are not disrupting anything.

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After that was the usual round of personal introductions. Names, what we play, where we’re from (most from various different countries).
Then we did a variation of Loop Cycle. Instead of being locked to loops, we played more “organically” and freely. And only three players could play at the same time. That means you must eventually drop out once the next person starts playing.
People requested a Card Drop game, so we went into that. I used the cards odolany made, originally for the game “15 Cards.”
Everyone gets two cards each. We start with one card in the center. We must musically improvise interpretations of the image on the card. At any time anyone can throw a new card in the center and we gradually change to that one. Continue until all the cards have been used. Cards are dropped fairly quickly - usually within a minute. Some examples: on the “grassy field” image we played soft music, then the “people talking” image was dropped in of course we all started talking, next someone dropped the “elephant” image to which I grabbed a long hose and placed it on my nose while others used this hose as percussion, then the “birds” card drop - one player played his bird pipe flute others whistled I played bird like motifs on my acoustic guitar, then someone dropped the “Godzilla” card and the music quickly turned ugly while some people stumped around, and so on. Fun stuff! I’ll put the game in the library and link it from here soon.

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After that, we took a break and all talked. One guy explained about a British(?) children’s game called “The Winking Murderer.” And with that, together, we created our own music game based off of this children’s game. Spontaneously creating this game was just as much fun as playing the games! Everyone chipped in with their own ideas.

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Then we played three rounds of it. Adding improvements after each round. The basic idea is that before the game everyone blindly grabs a card. You are the only player allowed to see your card. We had seven players and seven cards. low tones / rhythm / weird noises / harmony / high tones / murder / detective. Nobody knows any of the other player’s roles. Everyone, except the murderer and detective, plays music relating to the role on their cards. If you are the murderer your first job is to try to fit in musically. Also you must wink at other players. When a player is winked at they let out a scream, on instrument or voice, stop playing and die. But, if the detective catches the murderer winking then the murderer loses and the game is over. If the murderer winks at the detective, the murderer is caught and loses. The detective must also try to fit in musically. If the game comes down to only the detective and the murderer - the murderer wins. It’s great fun to play! I was the murderer once and it was a bit scary trying to wink and not get caught. I was able to kill one player. The second player I winked at happened to be the detective. It’s one of those games when everyone laughs at the end when the roles are revealed.
Before we knew it it was time to finish. We didn’t get as many games in as planned, but we all got to create a game together and that was a ton of fun!

Next, I'll write about the next music game session I do with a few musician friends of mine inside an old house/studio. I guess I could call it a more serious kind of thing, as we play more difficult music games.

As long as we keep the original 'everything-in-one-place' library as the main.
I don't see why we can't simply label games as "games of strict rules" and "free-form games." I often use both.
I also know a lot of people, me included, often modify games to our needs. A popular job of a music game director. If I need a free-form game, but really like a certain game using strict rules, it only takes a bit of "game surgery" to change it to a more free-form based game.

I'm familiar with the original one, which I had the chance to play last week. It's extremely accessible - easy to play and understand.
This one looks interesting, and I'd like to play it. Can you further explain this part, it's a bit unclear to me:

Be informed that when a symbol is accompanied by the exclamation mark, it will need to be followed more than regular following of a symbol (so don't over-follow the regular symbols ;) ).

Confused with one part by notrightmusicnotrightmusic, 04 Jun 2018 02:30
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